00:00 Episode Preview: AI Demon vs Daemon

00:20 Opening

00:56 Introduction

03:31 Interview Begins with Jenn and Yoshino

04:11 AI Art Experimentation Journey

06:51 Reflections on AI’s Evolution

11:13 The World, Tech, and Transition

16:08 Creativity: Muse or Daemon?

17:36 The Human Impulse to Create

21:49 Art, Legacy, and AI’s Impact

23:39 Mindful Tech and Human Value

27:21 AD – Join our Tarot for Alchemy Course https://learntarot.mysticmondays.com/

29:27 No One’s an Island Alone

32:09 In-Person Creative Collaboration Irony

33:56 AI Art: Intent and Collaboration

38:49 Love: A Creative Collaborative Force

42:13 Honest Expression in Art

45:49 Embracing Uncertainty and Inquiry

49:47 Fearless Hope Initiative Launched

51:11 Tarot Reading Insights

53:26 End of Episode – Make Sure to Leave a Podcast Review!

54:23 End Card

Welcome to the GRACED Podcast! A space for everyday magic for your everyday life. We do this through rituals, aligning yourself to your soul’s purpose, and creating Alchemy to heal our mind, body, and spirits so that you can bring in more love and joy, manifest your desires, and believe in your dreams.

Listen and watch over at graceduong.com/podcast and on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Instagram, TikTok and all the places you can find me on social media.

Now let’s dive into today’s episode.

💖 Introduction

Grace: Welcome to the GRACED Podcast, a space where we talk about everyday magic for your everyday life. Today’s guests are Jennifer Sodini and Grant Yoshino, the co creators behind the Artist Decoded Tarot Deck, a deck that blends AI generated art, fine art, philosophy, and esoteric wisdom. And even though the art was AI generated, Yoshino passed the information along to me that it did take him a year to create this art of using certain prompts, going back and forth with the AI, and also drawing over the AI generated art to create what you see in the deck today. Today, we’re talking about themes of the World tarot card, which represents wholeness, unity, and completion. We explore themes of the World, modern technologies like AI, and how that’s affecting spirituality, how you can use it for your practice, and so much more. And we are doing a giveaway of the Artist Decoded Tarot deck on Instagram, YouTube, and all the socials, so make sure to check that out. More information on the @grace_duong channel, the @mystic_mondays channel, and on the Instagram posts.

Grace: Before we dive into this episode, I want to share with you a special announcement because since we’re at the World tarot card episode, this does conclude the tarot card series of the Major Arcana tarot cards. I may bring this back at a later time, but I do feel a call and a need to transform The GRACED Podcast into a new format, which will primarily be on YouTube, but can still be accessible on your favorite podcast platforms like Spotify and Apple Podcasts. So similar to what we’re doing today, but just in a different format. I wanna express the deepest gratitude for you guys for sticking with me the past couple of years creating these tarot card episodes, oracle card episodes, and all of the episodes in between now and then. It has truly meant so much to me, and I’m especially grateful for you to witness the transformation of this podcast into a new format as well. As today, we’ll be talking about the World tarot card, it does feel like a full circle moment and a sense of completion for this podcast to transform into a new avenue. What that avenue is is still unfolding for me, but I’m glad for you to be here and to witness it all. Thank you for growing with me, for evolving with me, and for your presence. It goes beyond words for how grateful I am that you are here.

Now without further ado, let’s dive into this episode featuring the World tarot card.

✨ Interview Begins with Jenn and Yoshino

Grace: Hi, Jennifer and Yoshino. Thanks so much for being on the Grace podcast. I have your deck, the Artist Decoded Tarot with me. And today, we’re talking about themes of the World tarot cards. So I’d love for you both to introduce yourselves, your backgrounds, and how you two came to collaborate on the Artist Decoded Tarot deck.

Jenn: My name is Jennifer Sodini. I am an artist, writer, creative human being. I entered the deck space with my first deck, Amenti Oracle, and I have a few other decks that have come out since. And, yeah, I kind of known for this irreverent reverence for everything mystical and ineffable, and I’m very happy to be here.

✨ AI Art Experimentation Journey

Yoshino: Yeah. I started messing around with these artificial intelligence programs in, I believe, it was the summer of twenty twenty two, if I’m remembering correctly. And then I remember specifically when I started experimenting with it, and basically, the way that the deck is iterated is through using the images through various prompts and stuff, and then basically cutting it up with Photoshop and then painting over them. So it’s a bit of a different process than just like spitting the card directly out or spinning the image directly out. And so basically, I started experimenting with that and then I immediately called Jenn because she was the first person that popped up and she has been creating these decks and stuff and it just made sense. And Jenn and I have been friends for quite a few years now. And and, yeah, I mean, that’s kind of the shorthand of how this deck came to be. We learned a lot through this process.

Yoshino: We learned a lot about each other. I think we learned a lot of the use of artificial intelligence in general, and I think that informed us in a lot of ways. It definitely informed me on the process.

Grace: Yeah. So what inspired you to use generative AI as a a part of your process? And I’m curious about what prompts you were also using to decipher this world that you’ve created through the art. Because when I look through the images, there’s a sense of timelessness that I’m getting through the artwork. There’s like multi dimensional things happening. There’s like paint splatters. There’s so many different things happening in the artwork, and I actually didn’t know it was generated by AI until I read the back of the deck. I feel like there’s a humanness to it, which is probably parts of what you did after generating the art. But I’m curious, what was that process like? Where did that inspiration come from?

Yoshino: One of my friends that is a listener of my podcast, he told me about using Midjourney and using DALL E and these various programs, and I was like, I have no idea what that is. And then so, you know, I think for me, everything starts off with a bit of a curiosity for things, and so I started investigating and I was like, wow, this is very interesting. And this was pre the conversation of how, like where the images were being sourced and all that. And so essentially, I like to experiment with all sorts of different mediums. I’ve used like three d printing, and put my various mediums that come about video and my main medium is photography actually. So I started experimenting with it, and it’s been an interesting process to say the least.

✨ Reflections on AI’s Evolution

Jenn: I’d like to speak to how, for me at least, when Yoshino came to me with the project, it was still the like, he mentioned the Wild West AI. Summer of twenty twenty two, the novelty of all of it was just at the forefront of, like, a lot of our consciousness. Right? Wow. We can see what this looks like by generating a few words. And for me, the AI conversation has kind of been a part of my life since 2010. A former partner back then was warning about it and encryption and cryptocurrency and all of these things that were gonna be coming into our reality in the foreseeable future. In the summer of twenty fourteen, I attended this conference. It was called the World Series on Technological Unemployment, where there were the early conversations about what the world is gonna be like when AI advances to a level that humans are irreplaceable.

Jenn: And Yoshino, as a working artist and somebody that’s literally built a career and platform around elevating art, coming to me with this idea. I mean, I’m a big thinker. So I was like, oh my gosh. This is like a Trojan horse into discussing the limitless of human imagination and what it really means to be a creative and what it means to be an artist and how we can dive into the well of the human record and see what it means to be human through technology. And, again, speaking to Yoshino’s point, this is before we knew where things were being sourced from or anything. All the ethical implications that have evolved since this conversation. For me, the idea that being this Trojan horse into creativity felt like something that could be not only, like, prescient, but a relic. And we even look at it now.

Jenn: I mean, it looks archaic compared to what AI is virtually indistinguishable from reality. And that’s where I think looking at Yoshino as a working artist whose medium is to literally see the world through camera, the main medium. Right? And for me as a creative being that’s interested in spirituality and the fine line between, like, where does technology end and we begin? I thought it would be a great way to kind of just discuss the journey of the soul with tarot as the medium and then incorporating prompts that literally are encouraging, like, analog creativity. So that’s my big why.

Grace: Yeah. There are a few things coming up for me. So there was a recent New York Times article speaking about how AI had taken over some creative jobs. And in this case, you guys used AI to empower yourselves, I suppose, to create the artwork. And one of the other things that’s coming up for me is I went to an event where Deepak Chopra was showcasing his AI that he had created. So it’s kind of like chat GPC, but with Deepak answering your questions about anything that you’d want an answer to. And so I’m wondering what, for you guys, what the bridge is between art and technology plus adding the human element or removing the human elements, or even what technology and spirituality can create using AI.

Jenn: I think for me, Yoshino and I are both very clear in the beginning that we didn’t want this to be the AI deck. Right? That wasn’t our core thesis. That wasn’t what we want to be known as. That’s why we were very transparent in that generative AI was used, but there was human intervention. There was human intervention through Yoshino digitally painting and creating a whole world, and AI is not symmetrical, especially back in 2022. So to create symmetry and cohesion was actually, like, a very daunting task. And for me, it was just kind of like tarot, these cards that are the blueprint of the soul and deformed. How can we see technology to further either expand upon, verify, validate what it means, like, to even have a soul?

Yoshino: I don’t know. I think a lot a big part of my process in general of just kind of going about life is experimentation with different things, you know? And I think what I learned through the process is what how do I say it? I think what I learned through the process is, like, what I think is ethical in terms of the use of artificial intelligence in, like, one’s process. And also, I mean, for instance, I’ve been finding it really interesting using, how do I say it, like how Photoshop, for instance, has the generative fill. And I mean, it’s quite interesting by being able to well, because my my process or my main medium is photography to be able to, like, remove background elements and things like that. That’s something I’ve been experimenting with recently. But yeah.

✨ The World, Tech, and Transition

Grace: Yeah. So I find it interesting that you, Jennifer, had mentioned this depiction of this collection of the human experience or the the soul, and it reminds me of the Akashic records, which I feel like I do get that sense of, like, a keeper of time when I’m looking through the artwork. And so it’s interesting because humans make mistakes when remembering things and collecting memories, but in some ways, so does tech. But tech does a better job at it because it’s just like keeping data, I suppose. And bringing it back to the world, which is the tarot card that we’re here to talk about today, the world can represent finishing a cycle, achievement, and completion. And at at the time of this recording, we are in a nine numerology year, which is a hermit tarot card year tying up loose ends before we enter a number one numerology year, which is about new beginnings. And I do feel like this is really relevant to what’s going on right now because there is the rise of AI and people are concerned about what that could look like for their daily lives or even their occupations and how they can thrive using AI versus being afraid of it. So with this collective shift that’s happening, whether we welcome in this technology or not, how are you incorporating that into your lives on an individual level, and how did you feel about using it on a collaborative level, or where do you see that going using it with others?

Jenn: Yoshino and I have a mutual friend named Sarah Zucker, who is an incredible artist. And her work, Rose Ronald, kind of like this bridging of, like, archaic and modern technology through, like, VHS. But she had this great quote about how it’s the witch, not the wand. So I think, really, the idea is how you use it and the intentionality behind it. Like, AI is not a substitute for human creativity, especially now that ChatGPT and all these things have been around long enough. I mean, I can almost immediately tell when something is just purely prompted. But if it’s used intentionally, like, to help elevate or edit or condense, I think there are ways that we can learn to collaborate with it instead of allow it to kind of, like, collapse our own sense of identity and self. And even I found if you use it enough for editing, you see, like, well, I actually like my version better.

Jenn: You can’t replicate pain and suffering to the degree that, like, the human experience can. There’s a lot of charge around what it’ll mean for the advancement of AI, but it’s not going away. It’s not. It’s only gonna get further integrated into our lives.

Yoshino: Yeah. I mean, I think, like, the thing with the editing, like, you’re you’re talking about too is running maybe you have a poem or maybe you have, like, a chapter to a book or something and running it through AI. It spits it out in a way that is more authentic to not you necessarily as a person, but to the whatever program you’re running it through, right? Like it has its own specific voice. So I find it more interesting actually with like writing and stuff to make mistakes. I mean, I think like there’s something interesting in, like, keeping the mistakes in the voice or using specific words that I mean, there are specific words, I think, that these artificial intelligence programs, for instance, like chat GBT, they continually reuse. I mean, I mean, Jenn and I have talked about this before. Like, what are some of the words that do you remember off top of your head? Like, there’s

Jenn: Tapestry.

Yoshino: Yeah. Tapestry. That that’s the one.

Grace: That’s the

Yoshino: one that’s like tapestry. They use that all the time, and and there’s certain things that almost dehumanizes it in a way. So I guess the idea there, it’s like, how do you rehumanize it in a way. Right? And then I think that is more interesting in terms of the conversation between artificial intelligence and humans interacting with it. You have ideas. Right? Those ideas, putting it through the program and then recontextualizing it, I think, is more interesting. And I think that’s probably a more holistic way in terms of being able to integrate with the technology instead of just homogenizing oneself through the use of the technology, if that makes sense.

Jenn: And I think it’s interesting too compared to, like, the World card. Right? The world card is incredible in tarot, and it also has the cherubic elements. So, you know, today is the day that my new deck Be Not Afraid launches, which is very much about biblically accurate angels. And we talk about the cherubim and what the cherubic elements are are like the four cardinal signs of the zodiac. So you have Aquarius, you have Leo, you have Scorpio, you have Taurus, kind of like earth, air, fire, water. And tangentially speaking, from angels, there’s like a fine line between angels and demons, bigger line between a demon and a demon. So Yoshino in the opening text of the book talks about the demon as this kind of metaphysical thought form that comes to help you that actually is here. And Yoshino, I’ll let you expand upon it more because I think that’s been a part of your journey as well.

Jenn: But if we look at, like, is technology a demon that’s here to kind of possess us and take us over and take away and kind of trick us with this monkey paw idea? Or is it a demon in a way that it’s here to help elevate and assist us? How can we take metaphysical forces? And the thesis that if everything is everything and we’re all spirit into form, how do we use it as a tool, not a weapon?

✨ Creativity: Muse or Daemon?

Yoshino: Yeah. I mean, in terms of the whole daemon idea, I mean, I wouldn’t say I’m an expert about that stuff. But from what I understand, the ancient Greeks and Romans thought that creativity existed outside of ourselves. So they would call it the muse or sometimes they would call it the daemon, and it’s essentially this higher versions of oneself or something that would call you, right, like the muse. I think there’s something romantic there, and I think that there’s something very real there. I think about these Bob Dylan interviews that I listened to before where he says like, I can’t make that music anymore, and whether you think that’s because he’s a different version of himself, which is probably true, right, which is true because we evolve over time. But there’s also something romantic there about thinking about this muse or a daemon calling us to reach a higher sense of self, And I think that is a way that that I like to view things at least.

Grace: Yeah. And I know we started off this conversation talking about AI as a technology, but I feel like you’re also saying there’s an ancient technology that can be indescribable and not necessarily put into code. It could be a sort of source code or a divine code that maybe you download as an artist or creative that then outputs through you as a human vessel to create the artwork that you’re creating, whether that’s writing or photography or painting or whatnot. And so how would you define ancient wisdom as a technology?

✨ The Human Impulse to Create

Jenn: I mean, for me, it’s, like you mentioned, like, this is something that’s kind of flowed through human consciousness probably from the moment we became self aware. In our pitch for the deck, we talked about how since we could, we’re painting on caves. We wanna find ways to express ourselves. There’s this impulse that flows through the human experience to leave an imprint, whether it’s through the hand on the wall of a cave painting or the kind of, like, finger painting of the bull you caught. And then all the way up to where technology said it has advanced where it’s, I wanna see the most absurd thing imaginable in the style of x. It came from there. But it’s this reservoir of spirit that I think is flowing through us, and it’s just part of what makes us so special as a living, breathing animal being is that we’re storytellers. And we wanna leave behind relics.

Jenn: We wanna leave behind those imprints. It’s part of our humanity, and it’s a very rightful fear of technology stripping away that humanity. But, again, I think it’s just a greater iteration of that ancient wisdom flowing through because it’s whatever that source code is, finding a new iteration to understand itself through the advancing tech, but also through the consciousness that’s working with the advancing tech. And all of this comes back to even think then. We use technology now with a prompt. Can you help me do x? Can you do this in the style of? But those questions were more simple before technology where it’s like, how can I express this? Okay. I’m gonna take the clay from here and put my hand on the wall, or I’m gonna take the stone and chip away at it until I find the beauty within it. That’s sculpture.

Jenn: So it’s these are all prompted by the questions we’re asking, which is the fundamental part of being the storytelling animal is, like, what it means to exist.

Yoshino: Yeah. I love that. That’s beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I think taking that as kind of just, like, so what prompts us to create, right? And I think there’s something really magical and beautiful there. And whether that’s through writing or whether that’s through a photograph or whether that’s through integrating ourselves with the technology, right? There’s multiple ways to view it, the sort of neo Luddite kind of way where it’s like, I don’t want anything to do with the advancements of technology, right? But I think that there’s something interesting about integrating ourselves in a way where we don’t lose our humanity through it. If anything, it can bring further questions. I mean, I literally just started using it, like, a couple of days ago, but I was like, yeah, this generative fill thing with Photoshop.

Yoshino: And I’m like, okay. Well, there’s sometimes there’s photographs where I want, like, a very clean background. Right? Like, there’s a central focus. Like, I take a lot of portraits of people. There’s a central focus, and sometimes those elements are, like, distracting the background, and it makes it incredibly easy and almost, like, too easy to erase certain parts of the background or to make the bokeh really, like, clean or I mean, to make it look, like, interesting. Right? And so I think there’s that. And I think also using artificial intelligence as a tool, like I integrate it with some of my photography. I’ll put my images through it through mid journey or something and put three or four images and see what happens because I I I’ve been traveling for the past three years.

Yoshino: It’s kind of been my life journey essentially, and and I take a lot of photographs, like street photographs and stuff. And there’s really interesting results there, some surrealist abstractions that I probably couldn’t have made up on my voice through these various technologies than to just fully set aside and have sort of like a hatred for it. But although there are certain things ethically that I think are really horrible about, like the sourcing of the images too, right? So I think it’s more of a conversation than something like where I fall in the side of like this is a black or white sort of thing. And I think that by having the conversations, we can find more interesting answers, which by talking about the prompt in the beginning, I like the things that we’re curious about, we will eventually have more questions through the curiosity of trying to answer those, and maybe we never answer it. But I think that creates more questions, and I think that’s what a consciousness is, is finding trying to find answers to the questions and having more questions perhaps.

✨ Art, Legacy, and AI’s Impact

Grace: Yeah. So I love that you mentioned cave paintings, Jen, because that brought me back to this idea of mattering. And I think as a human going through this lifetime of wanting to leave behind something, whether that’s leaving behind a legacy for the next generation to encompass in some way. And I think we all wanna leave our mark in whatever way that is or matter in some way, especially as artists. Creating artwork for other people to consume, to react from, or positively benefit from in some way. And I think a lot of fear comes from not mattering because of AI, because AI could be taking over some of what their identity is attached to, like their job title or what they’re able to produce. And I think what I’m hearing from the both of you is that AI is clearing space for there to be that unlimited potential or a stronger connection to consciousness. Because if you’re not doing, like, the busy tasks that you might be doing without AI, then you could have more time and space to discover what your full potential is.

Grace: Completely.

Jenn: And I think, again, it speaks to that it’s the witch, not the wand, and, like, how you use it intentionally. Because for me, I have a big mind, and I can weave all these tangential ideas and sometimes can go out right out into outer space. But if I am able to say, okay, how can I condense this? How can I edit? How can I find focus? It helps me with that kind of mind. Or I don’t have a college education. I graduated high school. I did a little bit of college, and then I just went out into the world. And everything I learned came from a lot of networking, New York nightlife, and just immersing myself around humans. So for me, like, helping with grammar or syntax or things like that, that’s also great.

✨ Mindful Tech and Human Value

Jenn: And that also, I think, open sources that to someone who maybe has big ideas and doesn’t know where to begin. There is a level of accessibility to it. But, again, if we can engage with it mindfully with the awareness that, like, human beings are not replaceable. I went down this whole rabbit hole about, like, effective altruism and rationalism and this whole kind of, like, really scary realm of thought. And in that kind of realm of thought, humans are kind of, like, seen as, like, collateral to get to a greater goal. And I think if we, like, come back to, like, we’re not collateral, we’re actually the collaborative force to get to that greater goal. It’s just talking about it, having these conversations, and putting it at the forefront, and hoping that these masters of technology that are building these systems may have the level of empathy at some point or compassion or see how we can weave it to create a better world instead of just decimating the world for getting off planet. You know?

Yoshino: Yeah. I love what you said there, Dan. That phrase like it’s the witch, not the wand. Because I think as long as we’re not using these technologies to kind of homogenize thought and homogenize artwork and if it’s something that we can have a conversation about whether it’s with the technology or collectively like we are doing right now, I think that there can be something interesting there. But I think if we utilize it specifically to homogenize things, then I think that’s where things can get really not very good for society. So I guess what my question would be is, like, how can we use this to understand further? How can you use the technology to have a greater compassion, greater empathy, and greater understanding of of humanity?

Jenn: And I also I tend to think and I call it like apocalyptomism, like optimism in the face of the apocalypse. I try to stay optimistic because I think the pendulum always swings. There’s the novelty of this new thing. There’s this new thing that’s taking off further. But then on the other side of the pendulum, I have this feeling, this intuition, this deep instinct that I think part of the thesis of the deck having these creative prompts is that there is gonna be more interest to our grit. Like, what is it like to see a pen and ink artwork? What is it like to hold a tactile piece of art in our hands that is, like, genuinely only human made? That may become even more precious. Once we have, like, a dead Internet where everything is indistinguishable from AI and reality, when you can see something’s distinctly human, I think on the other side of the pendulum, there may be a revival of that. That’s what I hope for.

Jenn: That is what I I truly believe. Like, I think with social media is something that we’ve seen as this great connective tissue that allows us to meet new friends with shared ideas that I’ve I’ve friends that I’ve met on social media from a decade ago, and I’ve literally never met in real life. And I am so grateful for it, but I have this connection with that only exists because of this thing. But because this thing has been around for so long and there’s this loneliness epidemic, we are craving human connection. So on the other side of this is this great desire to, hey. Let’s get together in real life. Let’s plan a meet up. Let’s do like Yoshino and I actually met at this event in 2017.

Jenn: That, like, that was my whole thing. Like, let’s let’s get offline and have conversations and meet in person. And it was a great theory and concept, but I always think the pendulum swings both ways. We have this thing that emerges, that connects us. It gets to a critical point where it feels toxic. Okay. Now let’s actually find each other again. This is kinda like the character arc of, like, the Hunger Games and, like, a great every dystopian novel you can imagine where it’s, like, things get so much that there actually eventually is a return.

Jenn: So I am holding out for the return and this being a great mirror.

✨ No One’s an Island Alone

Grace: Speaking of the loneliness epidemic, Yoshino, in the guidebook, you mentioned building Artist Decoded has taught me solitude cannot nurture growth the way genuine human connections can, drawing us closer to a sense of wholeness. How does that relate to what you’re experiencing in your everyday life now in the process of creating this deck?

Yoshino: So I don’t think this is a unique thought. I think that growing up as an only child, I kind of thought that the world revolved around me in a sense. Right? And I think a lot of us well, perhaps, I mean, I’ll just speak for myself. Right? I think that growing up where you’re nurtured and I’m an only child, like, I felt like I could exist on an island in a sense. Although I needed human connection, I needed that connection and I sought it a lot because I didn’t have it really around me in terms of having like siblings. And so for a while there, I thought and I think it’s a very romantic idea that artists or not even just artists, but people I think it’s a very like capitalistic idea that like the self made millionaire or something like that, right? I think it’s a very typical idea, but those people, they always have other people helping them, and I think that it’s a false notion that we exist on an island when we don’t. We need people. We need people to help us.

Yoshino: We need that connection. And that’s actually what it means to be human, is to feel that connection, to feel love, like not even just romantic love, but like platonic love, all the spectrums of love, to have love for yourself. And I think that by really having that love for yourself, you can find great joy and happiness in that. And I think it took me a long time to get there and I still think that I’m trying to find even a deeper sense of that as I’m getting older. And I feel grateful to be able to, first of all, to be able to think about that. I think it’s a great privilege to be able to think about one’s own deepening of one’s existence, I guess consciousness, right? But we need these connections. Like I needed Jenn for this project. Jenn needed me for this project.

Yoshino: We needed each other. We learned a lot about each other. We learned good things. We learned bad things.

Grace: We learned the whole spectrum of

Yoshino: all things and I like to think that that really deepened our friendship. I spent time with her in Mexico, with her family and I felt great joy in that and there’s something beautiful in that and I think that resonates in the cards in some way. And so perhaps like the initial prompt, that’s the last time I’m going to use it as a metaphor or anything, the initial sort of thing was through the artificial intelligence, but it also brought us closer together and I feel like that was iterated within the whole process and I feel like the final product it shows. I think it was an interesting way to get there, but I think it shows.

✨ In-Person Creative Collaboration Irony

Jenn: And I have to add because I think what’s super interesting so with the other decks that I’ve worked on with Natalie, she and I are best friends, but we, like, have seen each other, like, four times in the past, I don’t know, ten years. And one of the way we work is I draw, and then she’ll create a piece of art that expresses how she felt by how I wrote. And, ironically, with a deck that has this thesis around technology, Yoshino and I spent a whole ton of time in person together working on this, just sitting at my in laws’ table, pulling cards. I’m a weirdo, so, like, I like to write in my notebook all my ideas first and then type it out. So we would like there’s a sense of playfulness and collaboration and togetherness that is just so ironic because, like, these other decks that were more, like, hand drawn, we never saw each other. We were just collaborating through phone and Internet. And then for this project, Yoshino and I spent a lot of time just like, playing in real life talking. Like he mentioned, he was there with me in Mexico.

Jenn: And echoing Yoshino’s sentiment, like, I’m also an only child. And when I was living in Mexico, I was very lonely and felt isolated. I I just had a baby, and it was a really kind of I thrive around other creative people. So we needed each other because when he came at that point, it was just this creative breath breath of fresh air that was just I I I think collaboration is so fun. Like, and we’re in this, like, capitalistic competitive thing, but we do like, as artists that can isolate, as only child artists that can isolate when we’re so stuck in an idea or a concept or a thesis, There was this sense of collaborative union and a lot of beauty that came from the play that happened there, which is, like, if you had a behind the scenes edit of this, what some may not realize is, like, how much was tactile, how much was us pulling cards and writing and sitting and talking and being in the same space as each other?

✨ AI Art: Intent and Collaboration

Grace: Yeah. I’m so glad you mentioned that because I know we started off talking about AI and the effects of AI and how you used it in the artwork, but also that there is collaboration behind this, and there’s also energy felt within the cards. And I think that goes back to the power of intention of the intent that you put into something because you’re also putting intent into a prompt to generate an answer. And depending on how you phrase the prompt or word it or insert different phrases or even like, hey. This is like how I say things. Can you also spit it back out and say tapestry or whatever? You know? And I think that’s important to note that the energy that we put into something as humans also directs the output of whatever tool that we’re using. So instead of thinking of it as some scary thing that can take over what we can do as humans, it can also be something that is within our control, so to speak.

Jenn: Completely. And, like, as we’re working on it, Yoshino is a triple Virgo. Virgo sunflower. So his his attention to detail and intentionality is very specific. And then for me, like, I I’m an oracle deck person. Like, I started reading oracle cards when I was, like, eight years old because my grandma I’ve always used oracle cards. And while I’ve loved tarot, I always had kind of a novice level of understanding. So one of the things as we were writing this, I actually was like, I need to educate myself even further beyond the books I have, beyond the experiences I have, beyond the decks I have.

Jenn: And I did an intensive with Naha Armiti, who has the school called Twenty Two Teachings. And after I did that, I was like, okay. If we’re gonna do this, we have to really, like, get the code. So going through that intensive was also part of it. Like, we educated ourselves. We weren’t just blindly being, like, you know, generate a deck for us. We were like, let’s give this as much depth as we can, please.

Grace: Yeah. I was actually surprised it was generated by AI because I actually didn’t get that when I went through the deck initially. It was just like, oh, this is the way things are going now, I suppose. But, yeah, I would love to hear Yoshino, you were gonna say something?

Yoshino: I’m glad that we’re doing this conversation. It feels great to be able to speak in the deck in this way. I think for a long time, I thought about the use of generative AI and it kind of gave me a lot of anxiety about wanting to talk about it. But the more that we talk about it in terms of the entirety of the process, it definitely comes into focus how much intentionality and everything is behind this. It’s interesting this time period that we’re living into where we have these technologies and where it’s accessible to a lot of people. And I think some people will use it specifically from the prompt and I think other people will use it in a way that feels more holistic. And I think that the conversation in itself is what’s interesting. And to have these conversations more regularly, I think, is interesting as well.

Yoshino: So that’s all I wanted to say, really.

Grace: Yeah. And I also really appreciate, Yoshino, you sharing your journey of self love, it sounds like. And I wanna go back to that idea of ancient wisdom as a technology and if you feel like love is a technology because perhaps that can boost you to certain levels that as an abstract idea, is love a technology?

Yoshino: I never thought of it like that, but god, I’m feeling that so much. I’m saying that specifically because like, how personal I don’t wanna get on this podcast. But I will say this. I’ve been through a lot of relationships in my life, and I find that the more that you actually love yourself, the closer you can get to finding that other person romantically that will really suit you. And sometimes we have to have grace for ourselves, grace for ourselves, because we mess up along the way. We’re we’re fallible creatures. We’re gonna mess up, and that’s part of the process of being human. And I think that’s what’s beautiful.

Yoshino: I think that sometimes our fear of things will teach us a lot about ourselves, and I think that we can either allow that fear to inhibit us from moving forward, or we can allow those fears to inform us. And also, like my entire adult life, I’ve been a martial artist. I did Brazilian jiu jitsu for ten years and I just recently started doing it again and I’ve been boxing for about nine years. And why I’m stating this is because I’m afraid of fighting. I am, I always have been, but I say yes to it and it makes me a better human being and I feel like it makes me a more empathetic human being because I see these professional fighters and a lot of them are suffering from various things, familial things or divorces or whatever and it’s very relatable. I think that it’s a very interesting thing about this sort of idea of the modern man and masculinity and things like that, but I think it comes back to love. I think it comes back to loving oneself and being honest about those things, being honest about your fears, being honest about the things you feel guilty about and you’re self conscious about. And I feel like that honesty really, really is empowering.

Yoshino: So that’s all I wanna say about that.

✨ Love: A Creative Collaborative Force

Jenn: And to your point, like, using fighting as a metaphor, what is it but a dance? Right? Like, you’re dancing and weaving and learning the movements of the other person and responding accordingly. I really do think that Buckminster Fuller has this quote that says love is metaphysical gravity, where it is this thing that provides a tether to the earth that we walk upon, but it becomes this driving force for us to build greater things. So for me, what I love about the lovers card, and I actually never understood in its entirety until I actually met Arish Khan. He is the lead singer of King Khan and Barbecue Show. He put out the Black Power Tarot, studied under Jodorowsky. And he explained it to me that it’s like it’s not about romantic love, it’s about love as the driving collaborative force that you create from because when you love and you create that creative expression is like the utmost beauty. And love is this multifaceted gem where the love I have for my daughter, the love I have for my husband, the love I have for my friends, the varying love I have for my friends, like, the relationship I have with Yoshino where he mentioned, like, we learned so much about each other through our Kai ish joys, through our being very angry at each other, and then through realizing, like, wow, I, like, genuinely love you as a person. And these are all these different gradients that actually help, like, refine spirit and what you create from there.

Jenn: And this project, I think, was very meta because it’s, like, decoding many things. But I think love really is. Love is the greatest magic power. I mean, the heart is the greatest. Talk about the wand. I mean, that’s the portal. So, yes, love, I think, is the greatest ancient technology that is timeless. And why Interstellar, I think, spoke to so many people too? Because, look, you’re in this movie about traveling through space and time, and what is the thing that reached him through the fifth dimension was the love he had for his daughter.

Jenn: So love. Yeah.

Yoshino: Now I’m reminded by that interstellar scene. And, yeah, I mean, that that is that is the message, isn’t it? Is like the love, that’s what really connects us. I mean, that that’s a film about technology very much. Right? And I mean, really, at the end of the day, it’s like, what mattered the most is that love that he felt for his daughter. And I think that goes back to the sort of, like, we can’t exist on the island. We have to have these connections.

Grace: Yeah. So there’s this theme of infinite potential within your deck. And this is the last question before we go into the fast five. But what is the role of the artist when it comes to creation?

Yoshino: I know

Grace: who answers this one. We’re welcome to it.

Yoshino: We should talk simultaneously over each other.

Jenn: I’ll I’ll speak to the brighter side, and you can speak to the artist side. Sound good, Yoshino? Sure. So I think, you know, when you look at the magician and this, like, as above, so below, how to channel the ineffable and bring it to a practical reality, I think the role of the artist is how to distill something so infinite and vast into something that can be digestible or something that can help me understand my role in the world in a greater way. I think that tarot cards are a great tool to get a glimpse into the tester act of the future. But, really, ultimately, if they can help you be more in the here and now and the writing allows you to do that, that’s really, like, as above, so below, as within, so without, channeled into form. So that’s my TLDR.

✨ Honest Expression in Art

Yoshino: Yeah. I like that. Something that I’ve been thinking about a lot is well, because it’s somewhat recent, I think, like, a month or or two ago when David Lynch passed away. And I was thinking, like, what drew people to David Lynch? Because I think the subject matter is very like Francis Bacon like, but I think there’s something very honest about his process and I can’t say that I liked a lot of his films. There is a few films that I really like, but the other ones I’m just like, I don’t really get it. And I think that I don’t really get it thing is pretty magical and beautiful because I think when you can truly and honestly express yourself and speaking about the true honest expression of oneself, I mean someone that comes up is Bruce Lee, David Lynch, David Bowie, like you can insert all sorts of artists in in that conversation, but the way that they use the mediums to to express themselves, I think, is magic. And in the most practical sense, that is what magic is, you know? To be able to see someone using their thoughts and conveying it into some sort of message that resides in a film or on a canvas or in a photo or even in sports, just seeing someone honestly express oneself is beautiful. I think that that can be achieved through the use of artificial intelligence as long as you don’t just let it spit your words out or let it spit out an image or something.

Yoshino: I think that there’s something interesting there and I think that there’s further conversations to be had that aren’t being had now because we don’t even have the technology to really decipher it. What I do know about humans is that when there’s something new that can be potentially scary, there’s a lot of fear And what I would like to think is like, what do we do with that fear? What does that fear tell us about ourselves? Whether that’s through fighting or whether that’s through the use of these technologies, and how do we handle that, and how do we evolve from that?

Jenn: And I think that’s the role of art. Right? Like, art in its essence is confronting. Art can evoke tears of joy or genuine terror where you see a photograph where you’re actually confronted with the reality of homelessness, and you feel it through the lighting and the visceralness of what this human’s experience is. And it’s like, maybe I never saw the world that way before. Or if you look at a Rothko painting, you’re like, I don’t get it. Like, feel something. Art is supposed to provoke, and I think that that’s also a form of magic where you can express something without words and provoke feeling or rapid awakening of understanding. That is magic, and magic has many degrees.

Yoshino: Yeah. We see so many different people copying directly from like Basquiat or from I just use Basquiat because I see a lot of artists directly being influenced and copying from Basquiat or something. Right? The thing is Basquiat didn’t create painting and David Bowie didn’t create music, but I think that there’s something interesting about remixing all these ideas together. And I think to do it in a way that is the most authentic to you, I think that’s also something that’s magical.

Grace: Yeah. And I know both of you had mentioned something along the lines of consuming art and maybe not getting it, and it just made me think of art transcending logic. And it can affect you in some way whether maybe it’s in different timeline. Maybe a month later, it clicks in your subconscious, and I think that can tie back into, like, the art of tarot, whether you’re like, for example, I pulled the ace of cups for myself before we hopped on today, and maybe this will click for me once I read the description. Or, you know, maybe it’ll click for me tomorrow or next week or something or next month. Did you wanna add something?

✨ Embracing Uncertainty and Inquiry

Yoshino: Oh, no. I guess I just wanted to say it’s like we don’t always have to have the answers, but I think we live in a society that wants answers or wants results. But I think it’s okay to have the inquiry and to not have the answer and say like, I don’t know what this card that I just pulled really means for me specifically right now. I don’t know what I just wrote, if that has any significance to something or maybe it does, maybe it has great significance. And sometimes it’s not our job to specifically know why we created the thing or what we’re doing while we’re creating it or what, but that’s for later on down the road. And that’s all I wanna say. Yeah.

Jenn: I was just gonna to your point, Grace, like, that’s the beauty of the cards too. Like, for a long time, I was haunted by the five of pentacles. Just haunted. Haunted. Haunted. Haunted. Every time I pulled a card, I’m like, why am I gonna lose everything? Is everything gonna go away? Like, what is it? Why? And then when I kinda finally figured it out, it went away. So sometimes something shows up and you, again, the questions are sometimes the answers and sometimes the thing that scares you and that you don’t wanna confront or look at can have a greater lesson in the unfolding.

Grace: Totally. And that’s, like, the divine intelligence of even, like, divine timing of you could be like, why is this taking so long to happen? And then it happens, and maybe it’s, like, not as great as you thought it would be or something. But, hey, the universe has answers. Maybe we don’t have answers right now, and maybe we’re not meant to know, and maybe that’s okay. So let’s move into our fast five questions. What is your sun, moon, and rising?

Jenn: Aries, sun, Pisces, moon, Capricorn, rising.

Yoshino: I think I’m Virgo throughout, but I could be mistaken. But I think I’m mostly Virgo.

Grace: We have very similar signs that were one off, Jenn. My rising is Gemini. Amazing. Yeah. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Jenn: Embrace being weird. Don’t reject it. Don’t feel shame for it. Fully embrace it.

Yoshino: I’ll second that and I’ll add, be fearless. Have courage. Don’t allow other people’s secondhand values to obstruct the way that you feel. It’s okay to feel. It’s okay to have questions, but have courage.

Grace: How would you define everyday magic?

Jenn: I would define it from the typical understanding of it’s the art and science of using your will to transform your reality. So willpower is the greatest tool to create the world that you wish to see.

Yoshino: I like that. I think something that resonate with me is the idea that destiny is carved by our decisions and I also think that a practical use of magic is that you can be of a lot of service to other people. Like you can really have an effect on other people’s lives in a very positive way by the way that you treat other people and to have kindness towards other people. I think that’s the most practical way that you can influence others.

Grace: What are your favorite rituals?

Jenn: For me, I love let’s see. I have three favorites. I love candle magic. That to me, they’re very this combination of tactile, meditative intention. I really love that. Pulling cards from my grandmother’s oracle deck, which I’ve had since I was eight, and I only recently found out where it came from. And writing in a notebook, I have so many notebooks that are just filled with scribblings and writings, and I think that that’s a beautiful ritual of having this kind of tangible artifact of your thoughts.

Yoshino: Yeah. I like that. Well, my biggest ritual for my mental health is working out. That’s the thing that I cannot live without. My second ritual would probably be cooking for myself, I guess. It’s like very practical stuff. And I really, in the mornings, I like to organize my thoughts in my mind, whether that’s through writing or whether that’s through figuring out specifically what I need to do that day or even doing that the night before, but organizing my thoughts in a way that makes sense to me.

Grace: Totally helps to win the day with a checklist, and it’s very Virgo.

Grace: Very Virgo. Triple Virgo.

Grace: Check, check, check.

Grace: Yeah.

✨ Fearless Hope Initiative Launched

Grace: What are you looking forward to

Jenn: in the near future? For me, I’m very, very excited that be not afraid Next Deck has launched today. I think that considering the state of the world right now, having a message of fearlessness in the face of it all is really prescient. So I look forward to kind of the intention that I’m wrapping around, how I wanna talk about it is called, like, Hope Corps. So offering just any bit of light and hope in the face of this chaos, I’m very excited to be a beacon for that.

Grace: Congratulations on your new deck. Thank you.

Yoshino: Yeah. Congrats, Jenn. That’s amazing. I don’t know. I don’t wanna be too cheesy, but just, like, being appreciative of things, being grateful, just to be able to like express oneself, to give to others, to have life, to give to other people’s lives. I think it’s as simple as that. Be able to continue to create. I think that’s a beautiful thing.

Grace: Yeah. I think that’s beautiful and ties back into this macro theme of the world where these micro things matter that make up all the macro things, whether it’s like the small things of giving thanks or being grateful or being present, and power is in presence because you can’t actually make decisions if you’re not present. So, yeah, that’s really awesome.

✨ Tarot Reading Insights

Grace: We’re gonna move into our collective reading from Jenn. She’s gonna use the Artist Decoded Tarot and perhaps also a guest pull from your new deck today.

Jenn: Yes. I wanted to be prepared, so I have been shuffling, and I just have to share. It’s very funny what cards I got. So I just did a three card pull from Artist Decoded, and the first card that I got was strength, which feels very, very apropos. The second card is queen of wands, and the third card is seven of cups. So as a three card reading, it feels like a very perfect amalgam of this conversation is finding strength in the face of the beast and learning how to temper it with heart and gentleness, knowing that it’s the witch, not the wand, even though this is the queen of wands, using how to control your mental force and direct that fire into something big, and saying that options that you have in front of you, the dreams and what dreams may come. And I have to share it’s very funny because the card I pulled from Be Not Afraid is Shamuel, who in our deck is about using love as a metaphysical force to fix what’s been broken, to put the pieces back together, and to have trust in the new chapter unfolding. And look at these two compared to each other.

Jenn: You have an angel next to their feline companion, and then we have strength with the lion. So it’s kind of like channeling our humanity in that animal force to pick up the pieces and rebuild anew. Wow. That’s so cool.

Yoshino: Oh, it’s super beautiful, John. I I felt like I needed to hear that today. Thank you.

Jenn: You’re welcome. But I was just laughing at the synchronicity, and it’s 11:11 here. So, of course.

Grace: Well, thank you both so much for sharing your light and wisdom and for opening up a door into your insights and, you know, sharing your process as well because I think a lot of people are curious behind how they can get in touch with their artistry and spirituality and also this kind of like newish topic of integrating creativity, technology, and spirituality together. So I really appreciate you both for being here and for sharing yourselves today. So thank you.

Jenn: Thank you, Grace. Thank you for offering the space for us. This has been lovely.

Yoshino: Yeah. Thank you so much. We both really appreciate you for the time and and for everything. Thank you very much.

Jenn: Thanks. Alright. Bye.

Grace: Bye.

✨ End of Episode – Make Sure to Leave a Podcast Review!

Grace: Thanks so much for tuning in to today’s episode with Jennifer Sodini and Grant Yoshino. This conversation was truly expansive, blending art, spirituality, and cosmic connection into one beautiful whole. This collaboration is such a reflection of the world tarot card. Integration, unity, and completion. Here’s a journaling prompt to take with you. Where in your life are you coming full circle? What have you learned on your journey so far? I’d love to hear how this resonated. Drop a comment, leave a review, or share with someone who’s on their path of becoming their complete whole selves. And as a reminder, we will be doing a giveaway of Jennifer Sodini and Grant Yoshino’s The Artist Decoded Tarot over on Instagram, YouTube, and all of the socials, so make sure to check that out.

Grace: Until next time, celebrate the wholeness that already exists within you. Sending you grace today and every day.

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